NHNE Near-Death Experience Network

Exploring all aspects of near-death experiences (and related phenomena).

Hello Everyone!

As most of you know, this network is full of lively discussions pertaining to purpose of life issues. I thought I would jump into the fray with some thoughts on classic enlightenment experiences, Jesus, NDEs, and related topics. I wanted to start by quoting a post from William Joseph Bray that I felt established a nice baseline. William posted this succinct overview in a thread that Robert Perry started called "Attn: NDErs - Why do near-death experiences seem so real?"

........

William writes:

Consciousness is misunderstood as a thing, which exists in this Universe. It does not. It cannot. It is impossible for consciousness to exist in this Universe for reasons I have continually described throughout this work. And I will not stop repeating it. What we actually experience is a small fraction of the focus of our awareness of our true selves, our perception; we exist not inside the confines of this Universe, not in some Heaven in the future, such as some time after physical death, but right now. You are not who or what you think you are. This tiny fraction of the focus of our awareness seems to be involved in some activity which is governed by at least but not limited to the following set of rules or conditions I list here because they are the ones which seem obvious to me:

• You exist seemingly separate from God.

• Space and time are real.

• The physical, carnal world is real.

• You have no immediate perception of your true infinite nature.

• Although you have near infinite knowledge and understanding, tangibly demonstrated by your ability to manipulate space, time, mass, energy, and the four known forces of nature at will, you are limited to a very finite set of rules and understanding and intellect suitable for the purpose of the game.

• You exist in a set of circumstances and surrounded by individuals and settings that support your role in the game.

• You are required to bury yourself in the role -- the willful suspension of disbelief -- as though it were real.

• The goal is not to find your way out of The Game; you are here for the multitude of things that are accomplished by being in The Game. The goal is to get to the next level of The Game.


William adds later in the same thread:

"My way of getting to the next level of the game is to do the work, have a positive impact on others. If the Kingdom of God is in me, no one who encounters me should walk away empty handed."

........

Before I add my two cents to this discussion, let me admit that I tend to be a generalist -- and I know that this is frustrating to folks who would like me to be more precise. I aspire to be more godlike in this department but am hampered by an average-sized brain, limited education, mediocre memory, insufficient time for scholarly research and study, and an interest in far too many topics to be an expert on any of them. So I paint with broad strokes. This, I think, is good for discerning general truths and trends, but not so good when it comes to fleshing out details. And since the devil, as we all know, is in the details, it is important we get those right too.

So what's a generalist to do who is trying to deepen their understanding? What feels good to me is sharing with you, as clearly as I can, what's on my mind -- and then making room for you to add your voices to the choir. Maybe what I have to say makes sense to you and you can fill it out. Maybe it doesn't and you want to challenge it. I welcome your thoughts, whatever they might be. I have no illusions that I/we are finally, once and for all, going to solve the great mysteries of life. But since the effort to understand such topics appears to help us grow, evolve, and deepen, I think it's worthwhile to try.

To begin with, I would like to list a few things that I believe are true that, as far as I can tell, are not only NOT common knowledge, but also have the potential to upend some deeply engrained ways of viewing the spiritual path, spiritual experiences, and, ultimately, the purpose of life.

Here's my list (keep in mind that I am speaking about dream world issues in the spirit of William's post):

1. While The Ground of Being, The "I Am That I Am", the primordial ocean of oneness that we all emerged from and continue to be immersed in is the foundation of life, it is not the state of conscious we should aspire to re-immerse ourselves in.

2. The purpose of life is not to leave this world by entering higher states of consciousness, but to get more fully immersed in the world and bring higher states of consciousness into the created universe.

3. I believe life, itself, has been carefully designed by a loving force so that we discover these truths and, step-by-step, come to understand and embody them. I see evidence of this in at least two places:

A. Those who attempt to leave the dream world by immersing themselves in various kinds of classic enlightenment experiences appear to be sent back to the dream. In the case of near-death experiences, NDErs are constantly being told that they have to go back to learn lessons, fulfill purposes, take care of others, and to fulfill other vital roles in the dream of life. While I'm not sure what happens to those that are allowed to stay on the other side of life, I suspect that some kind of reincarnation process takes over, and they are recycled into future and past lives to continue their work, and journey, in the dream.

B. Those who experience classic enlightenment experiences can end up over-identifying with their god nature, and because of this, see no need, or have no interest in becoming better, healthier, more grounded human beings. This, in turn, produces people who end up following the archetypal path of the fallen guru. In this archetype, the master who presents him or herself as the embodiment of perfection and enlightenment by day, is discovered to be engaged in various kinds of money, power, and sexual indiscretions behind-the-scenes. Some sources suggest that people can become so overly identified with the primordial oneness that they loose the desire, perhaps even the ability, to immerse themselves in the created universe. And this, in turn, is a sad and unfortunate because by checking out of the created universe, they forfeit it's gift which, as I understand it, is to make us more whole, complete, fulfilled than we were in the beginning (don't ask me how God can become more perfect because I don't know).

You can find a series of remarkable quotes, from diverse sources, that support the statements I have made above in an NHNE Special Report I wrote in 1995 called "Discernment & The Spiritual Path".

http://www.nhne.com/specialreports/srdiscernment.html

4. Finally, while classic enlightenment experiences lead one to believe that there is nothing new under the sun -- that the Ground of Being is all there really is and It is eternal and unchanging -- I've also come to believe that brand new experiences, on all levels, are actually unfolding as we (and the created universe) evolve. While this is plainly obvious on the physical level, I think it is also true on the spiritual level. Here's one possible example:

PMH Atwater gave a talk at Virginia beach, Virginia a few years ago. In her talk, she mentioned that an NDE researcher somewhere had discovered that tribal peoples did not experience life reviews.

If this is true (and I haven't been able to verify whether it is or not), it suggests that some aspects of the near-death experience may require certain kinds of development. We may have to move, for example, from a group-mind, or tribal level of consciousness into a more personal and individualized one before we begin to experience past life reviews.

It also implies that as we continue to evolve, so will the things we experience on the other side of life. Ever more powerful spiritual experiences, unavailable to previous generations of human beings, will emerge as we grow, evolve, deepen, expand.

Humans, clearly, did not always possess the ability to speak, to draw, to create complex cultures. We evolved these abilities, over long periods of time. Ditto for our culture. They did not pop up full blown. They developed, step-by-step over eons of trial and error. I suspect the same is true for our inner life and spiritual experiences. Which leads to a related thought: titanic, life-changing discoveries are being made all the time now that ancient cultures -- and religious traditions -- apparently knew nothing about.

Evolution, for example.

And the fact that human beings pack around shadow aspects of ourselves that can't be shined away by meditation practices.

When you realize that all of today's major spiritual traditions arose in primitive, isolated, illiterate, tribal cultures, this isn't surprising. They are bound to have oceanic blind spots. So why have we held onto to them so tightly? Yes, they often contain eternal spiritual truths, and the truths they champion are essential and foundational, but how many of them incorporate the discoveries of our modern world? How many of them recognize that life is constantly changing and evolving, that new discoveries, including new spiritual experiences, are continuously emerging, and that spiritual understandings and practices need to adapt accordingly to be relevant -- and survive?

My point here is that the discoveries being made in the modern world are not only revealing, often in technicolor, the weaknesses and shortcomings of former spiritual traditions, but also demand that we find new spiritual understandings and practices that can address the needs of people who are more aware, developed, and connected than former generations.

Now let me shine a little light on something I have noticed that I think is very interesting.

In recent decades/centuries there has been a migration of educated Western people to Eastern philosophies and practices, especially Buddhism. I think some of the reasons for this are that many Eastern traditions offer spiritual ideas and practices that tend to be older and more sophisticated than Western ones; that Buddhism, in particular, embraces science and encourages direct, personal experiences; and many Westerners are feeling the emptiness of lives that are dominated by rampant materialism.

But recently, the tide has apparently begun to turn, at least in the worlds I track. An increasing number of rational, highly-educated people that abandoned their childhood faith in a God-loving, miracle-working Jesus in favor of the more heady, impersonal, and mystical traditions of the East, have started to feel a longing in their souls. They've also started to see that Eastern teachers, masters, and philosophies, with all their beauty, have continent-sized holes.

So here's what I think is happening and why I think it is important for us to be aware of it.

As humankind becomes increasingly conscious, I think we are going to realize that the path to happiness and fulfillment does not lie in immersing ourselves in classic enlightenment states, but, instead, with allowing God/Spirit/our Higher Selves to become incarnate in the dream world through us. As far as I can see, Jesus is the most fully embodied champion of this perspective. While a personal God apparently doesn't exist for most Buddhists, including Buddhists like the Dalai Lama, for Jesus, God was exceedingly personal. He not only knew how many hairs we each have on our heads, but He is intimately aware of every aspect of our lives -- and actively involved in loving us, guiding us, caring for us. I think this is one reason many Westerners are beginning to feel unfulfilled by Eastern philosophies and practices -- because they long for a personal relationship with God. And they intuit relationships with other human beings is central to our existence; that human beings can't really be happy -- and healthy -- living in a cave (literally or figuratively). We are not only meant to join with one another, but joining with one another is the path Spirit has chosen for Itself to get back Home through the created universe.

Jesus, of course, not only had a loving relationship with a personal God, but he also deeply loved other human beings and was profoundly concerned with how we treat one another. While there has been an effort to turn Jesus into a meditating, non-dual, satori-immersed Buddha, the core historical records we have about him do not support the view of him being a contemplative. Instead of isolating himself from the cares of the world, he apparently was actively engaged in a day-to-day struggle to transform the world he lived in into a reflection of the Kingdom of God he experienced so clearly, deeply, and personally. The path or spiritual practice that Jesus recommended was, significantly, Earth-bound and relationship-focused: love one another, especially those whom we regard as our enemies. (For an outstanding overview of what we've been able to learn from modern Jesus scholarship about Jesus and his message, read Robert Perry's "Loving Our Enemies: The Core of Jesus’ Vision in the Sayings Gospel Q" - pdf)

http://mustardseedventure.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Perry_Q_Lo...

I first heard about near-death experiences when I heard Dr. George Ritchie describe his amazing experience during a lecture he gave at the A.R.E. (Edgar Cayce's organization) in Virginia Beach, Virginia. That was over 35 years ago. Jesus played a central role in Ritchie's life-changing experience. Since Raymond Moody was inspired to pursue a career in near-death studies after his encounter with Ritchie's story, I think it is fair to say that Jesus also played a central role in the birth of NDE studies. But here is what is really eye-opening: when you make a list of the core features of the near-death experience and compare it with the core features of Jesus and his life and message, you get parallels that are breathtaking. In my view, there is no other historical personage that has more in common with near-death experiences than Jesus.

Why is that? Did Jesus have a near-death experience? Is that where his wisdom, healing powers, possible miracle-working abilities, knowledge of the Kingdom of God, emphasis on loving others, ability to speak with authority, and heartfelt preoccupation with treating others, especially the poor and disenfranchised, as ourselves, come from?

And why does Jesus continue to pop up in human history, inspiring an endless stream of leaders to create new movements that have nudged this world, closer and closer, to the vision for humanity that Jesus championed?

One more point, and I'll wrap this up.

I don't think we can rely on ancient traditions, understandings, and experiences to teach us what we need to learn now. We require a new path to teach us about evolution, about becoming, about why we are in this dream world and how to make the most of it. I suspect that NDEs (and NDErs) are emerging in response to this need. It looks to me like Jesus and the small group of people who were inspired by him were some of the first champions of this impulse. After centuries of growing and maturing, this same impulse is now appearing in people all over the world, from different cultures and religious traditions, in the form of people who have been touched, healed, and transformed by NDEs. Other spiritually transformative experiences are also awakening people to this new impulse, but I think it is important to be clear that not all mystical and spiritual experiences are aligned with the impulse that Jesus embodied, or that classic NDEs promote. Many spiritual experiences, in fact, appear to be just the opposite: they encourage folks to move away from relationships and the created universe towards the primordial, formless bliss of our origins.

What do the rest of you think?

Do you agree that NDEs are remarkably aligned with Jesus and that together they are shining light on a new evoltuionary path? Do you see any dangers in over-identifying with classic enlightenment experiences? Do you think something else is happening?

I welcome your thoughts...

......................

RELATED LINKS:

The Three Faces of God by David Sunfellow
The Dark Side of Buddhism
Loving Personhood or Liberation From Personhood? by Robert Perry
Discernment & The Spiritual Path by David Sunfellow
Loving Our Enemies: The Core of Jesus’ Vision in the Sayings Gospel Q by Robert Perry (pdf)
Evolutionary Enlightenment by Andrew Cohen (Book)
Wikipedia on Sri Aurobindo
The Future of the Body by Michael Murphy (Book)
The Pathwork Guide Lectures of Eva Pierrakos by David Sunfellow
Pulse on Jesus

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Jusst as some input, my definition of the 'life review; is a misconception of the observer because of our archetypes.  From having seen this phenomenon more than once, it appears to me to simply be the result of seeing what we normaly observe as the passage of time from a perspective outside of out time domain, and everything appears to happen at once, rather than separate events.  The 'review' becomes a misunderstanding of perceiving events in this way.

 

That explanation also answers the paradox regarding every living thing seeming to enter the Kingdom of God at the same moment.

 

 

Nevertheless, people change after the life review. Because the see it as a movie, and see ways in which they

behaved which they see are wrong, they see the selfish aspect of themselves, and when they return they

become a different person, trying not to harm others.

 

David what you write, is very good because generalizing is also necessary. You have a broad view and

try to be the nearest possible to truth.

 

When you write this, are you joking?

am hampered by an average-sized brain, limited education, mediocre memory, insufficient time for scholarly research and study,

 

Hi Dina. No, I wasn't joking, just acknowledging a few places I tend to fall short when discussing complicated issues like these. I think it's healthy to acknowledge our limitations, as long as we remember whatever limitations we have are: 1. only part of our overall makeup; and 2. an illusion. :)

 

 

Jeremiah and David

 

Since I am not religious, although I am jewish, I didn´t learn any dogmas, or at least forgot them,

I cannot follow any religious lider specifically. All religions have good teachings and many of them

are very similar.

I was never led to "believe" in anyone. I was left on my own.

So in the solitude of my childhood room, I prayed to God. I was certain there was a God.

I felt very lonely and when I prayed to God I felt I had company, a warm loving company.

My parents were not religious, maybe even atheist, but they were deeply good doctors, who felt

a great compassion for the ill, and tried to help them with the best of them

Many times atheist people are better beings than many religious ones. In my work I had

a coworker who was very religious, prayed a lot , and behaved in a selfish way, was very envious

and did harm to his fellow workers. He believed in Jesus more than in anyone.

Many people are deeply good because they are sensitive and have compassion for other

and have understanding. And some of these people don´t even know what a religion is.

Does a doggy know which religion he belongs to, or does he follow Jesus? And yet he is

loving an thankful with you because you have given him your home as his home, you share food

with him, and you love him. And he is thankful and shows his love.

If in this physical dimension, we have good feelings and do a good work, we are fulfilling

our purpose,  theist or atheist, and our eternal consciousness will know it, and God will know

it. So what is important are not our beliefs or the religious liders, (although they have good teachings)

BUT OUR ACTS ARE THE IMPORTANT ONES FOR THEY CHANGE US AND CHANGE THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF OTHERS.

Yes, I've seen the same thing. Those who love dressing up in religious costumes are often less good, spiritual, sincere, holy than those who forgo the costumes and just focus on being and doing good in the world. Calling yourself a Christian, or Buddhist, or Taoist, or whatever, does not necessarily win any points in my book. Like you, I believe actions speak louder than titles or affinities, especially when folks are flashing them around so others will think they are more holy than they really are.

 

On the other hand, if I come across someone who lives a good life, and has important things to teach me about how I/we can live better lives, I'm always interested in finding out more about them. Who are their mentors and teachers? What spiritual paths, teachings, and philosophies have they found to be helpful? What spiritual practices do they engage in? Etc.

 

Changing gears, slightly, how delightful that you felt God's presence early in your life. I was happy to hear that.

I think I can summarize my response to David’s statements in the following manner:

 

The vast majority of people, regardless of what they ‘believe,’ and we’ll leave ‘belief’ as an open definition temporarily, ‘think’ they can achieve some higher level by some cognitive practice, such as meditation, enlightenment via LSD, and so on.

 

The hard data requires evidence that any human has achieved some ‘higher level’ of existence, awareness, whatever you want to call it, any evidence at all, by whatever means, any means, simple evidence that this ‘higher level’ has been achieved, regardless of how they got there.  Perhaps a meter or super futuristic ‘spiritual evolutionary detector’ placed next to their head or heart, etc?  What type of device or meter stick can one possibly use to determine if someone else, or perhaps you, yourself, has achieved some spiritually evolved step, or even a simple step in humanity?

 

If I am metering myself, I can say I see the world and others in it differently, but that could be a simple form of psychosis, and by the definition of psychosis, I cannot possibly know that it is because I am psychotic – psychotics and sociopaths have demonstrated throughout history this is the case; Jim Jones, Manson, Applebaum (Heaven’s Gate), and so on.

 

If I am metering another being other than myself, than I am the one designing the meter stick, and since I am presumably not as ‘evolved’ as the person I am metering, than I am insufficient to design such a meter stick.

 

The reason I wrote “Quantum Physics, NDE’s, bla bla bla,” is because a plethora of people want to appear huge on the meter stick of others, and do so by tossing vocabulary words from science and philosophy and religion that sound real cool, but are completely out of context with their formal definitions, usually altogether WRONG in every sense of the word, but either inadvertently or deliberately misstated or defined as the speaker/author sees fit to suit their personal agenda.

 

For instance, I am now writing an additional chapter in the book on the ‘Holographic Principle’ of Physical Cosmology, because an author is misusing the term to a ludicrous degree stating that the definition states that science has confirmed we are living in a ‘Matrix,’ like the movie (Divine Matrix). So I have to write an entire chapter to define to the lay person the formal definition of the term in Physical Cosmology so they will not be mislead by this ridiculous and deliberate spawning of misinformation.

 

Another perfect example in Eastern religion perverted in the West is the misuse of the terms ‘pratityasammupada (interdepency) and the five ‘skandhas’ (causality) that appeared in our debate on Friday.  The atheist uses the terms out of context to suggest that the interdependency and causality work both ways – we are painted into being by the physical universe, an artifact of the physical universe.  Quantum physics explored that possibility over half a century ago and dismissed it; formally, with hard data.  Interdependency and causality are proven to go only one direction; we paint the universe into being, not the other way around, and not a two way street.  The experimental results do not paint the experimental physicist into being to conduct the experiment; it’s the other way around.

 

So much of my work, because I have a ridiculous education and experience, is debunking the charlatans with silver tongues by explaining the formal definitions; because these people, rather than Achieving THE NEXT LEVEL want to appear to others as though they have.  They do this for a variety of reasons, including but not limited to empowerment, validation of their own cognitive gibberish belief systems, and comfort in their belief system as a foundation for immortality – simple fear of death; and it is this simple fear of death that causes people to listen, hoping for an epiphany that will convince them they are not finite.

 

So they, today, look at the NDE as a resource, a thing that the experiencer states explicitly can not be described, yet take these vague descriptions of things that cannot be described, attempt to interpret them cognitively, equate it with their personal agenda, and write books.  And the readers read because they want validation that they are not finite.

 

I used 6th grade math to prove that, and backed it up with the hardest science known to humanity at this time.

 

However, we still have the problem of our meter stick.  How do we measure ourselves and each other?  Judge?  Judgement?  Or is it evaluation?  Or is it a concise measurement?

 

The only available data is, according to Jesus (we’ve already discussed that His existence is not interdependent on your cognitive beliefs) what we say and do.  If we speak gibberish, such as the authors of gibberish, then that, as Jesus says ‘what comes out of the mouth comes out of the heart, that is how you know the heart of a man.’  And as the apostle Paul said: ‘without works, Love (referring to merely talking about it) is like the tinkering of a bell, just another noise.’

 

To do the work is clearly defined, edify them in some way, comfort them, heal them, feed them, etc.  Straight forward.  What comes out of our mouths is less clearly defined, because the ‘truth’ requires discernment upon hearing it, regarding rather it is true or false, and often people mix truth with gibberish, the sprinkling of truth gives the illusion that the entire thing is correct, a common deception technique.

 

‘Knowing’ also qualifies as gibberish.  People knew the Earth was the center of the universe, they had no alternative model by which to doubt it, the Earth not being the center of the universe was completely beyond the human experience; and the structure of the universe did not re-conform to that knowledge or belief.

 

Your own, personal, unique, infinite nature is the first requirement, spiritual 101, or else God is irrelevant, a thing you will never experience.  Seeking God and/or proving God has been a misconception some of my readers have suggested.  I explicitly state that ‘no, first we have to validate that ‘you’ truly exist, and that ‘you’ truly exist for infinity, at which point you have infinity to figure the rest out for yourself.’

 

My suggestion is therefore to let go of seeking the most unreachable, God, infinite dimensions, Divine Matrixes, crystal meditations, fung shway (or however you spell it), karma, Eastern philosophies, and even scriptures.  You are actually trying to be on the other side of the mountain without first climbing over it.  The mountain is ‘you.’  ‘You’ have to establish that you truly exist, uniquely as yourself for infinity, or you will never see the other side of the mountain, it is designed to be impossible unless you do it this way.

 

Being unique for infinity must be totally tangible and real, not a knowledge or belief.

 

An NDE will not achieve this.  The only way to achieve this is to do the work: heal the sick, comfort, feed, etc.  It doesn’t mean spreading sunshine with a big ridiculous smile and cheer-leading attitude, ‘Personal Motivators’ make a substantial living doing this, so does ‘Barny.’  Talking about Love and so on does not achieve this.

 

When I went into the cancer center at UofP Friday night, the half dozen or so patients I prayed over were grateful; but as I’ve observed before, their families, who were standing right there, had experiences far beyond the gibberish I’ve heard come out of the mouths of people who have experienced NDEs.  The observers of the deed ‘Exited The Game’ momentarily, and as I’ve followed up on such people in the past, they are never the same.

 

Some patients may actually die, but that does not change the permanent change in the witnesses, it never does.  So the word ‘failure’ does not apply.

 

When my dog Keats died, the doctor administering the lethal injection caught up with me a year later.  He stated that ever since watching me speaking to Keats as he died, guiding Keats to his ‘Uncle Jesus,’ he (the doctor) was never the same.  Even in watching the way ‘we’ (Keats a dog and I a human) die, the doctor was never the same.  He, the doctor, a former confirmed card holding atheist, prays over his dogs as he provides lethal injection, to this day, much to the bewilderment of his human observers, and he doesn’t care, because he knows they will (at least some portion of them) end up like him.

 

So if you approach a person to lay hands on them and heal, let them know up front, ‘nothing might happen.’  That almost never has a negative impact on their attitude.

 

 

 

Good works isn't limited to the obvious.

How are you raising your kids?  To kill people?  To tie bombs to themselves in the name of God?

How do you talk to people?  Do you shove JJJJEEEZZZUZ down their throat like a kung fu blow?  Making them certain of their atheism?

Do you rip people off? Do you lie to them?

You are thinking of the first lunar landing, thinking of the astronauts, and not considering how many thousands of man hours went into the design and construction of the rocket itself.  Did you know a 19 year old with an associates degree in engineering computed the landing approach for the lunar module? And they landed - without crashing.

Your depression is causing you to look for failure in your existence or otherwise suspect that others perceive you that way; without even knowing you've been doing the work.

You can't take a deep dive without first filling your lungs with air.

 

We prayed to JJJeezuz.

JJJeeezuz let her legs get amputated.

Everyone is doing the best they can, until they learn better.

I am glad for my depression; it is a gift.

 

 

 

 

Dear David,

Thanks for this!

A general rule of thumb in the world of reason is the law of parsimony. It says that given different explanations for a phenomena, one chooses the one that covers the known data points while making the fewest assumptions. Examples would be theories that the Moon is made of cheese, the Earth is flat, the Face on Mars, creationism, or that the US government or Zionists destroyed the Trade Towers. In each of these cases a simpler, more plausible explanation that covers the data exists. We may never know for sure the truth about any of these, but reason would say that in such cases it's best to go with parsimony, because the simplest explanation is most likely, though hardly guaranteed, to be the correct one.

So what's that got to do with your post? You are familiar with Jung's theory of archetypes from the collective unconscious. How does that not cover what you are suggesting regarding NDE's more simply than the idea that they are experiences inspired by Jesus himself, which I think is what I am hearing you say? Correct me if I'm mistaken. In any case, why couldn't such a creation by the mass mind of centuries of praying Christians be experienced as both extraordinarily real and extraordinarily loving?  To me this would be an example of William's one-way causation - humans painting the universe into being, which is of course a basic concept in any approach, Eastern or Western, that says our mind creates our reality. It does seem that both you and William, but perhaps coming from different places, have concluded that somehow belief that at least some aspects of NDEs are indeed due to the direct intervention of Jesus is the most parsimonious explanation. I don't see it, but then, I look back at my level of understanding last Thursday and I shudder. Thank goodness for growth through exposure to perspectives that are broader than my own! 

 

 

Joseph, I am not saying that near-death experiences were or are inspired by Jesus (unless, of course, you want to go all the way and acknowledge that Jesus, along with you and I, are the god/gods that are creating everything). What I am saying is that it looks to me like Jesus plugged directly in to whatever the near-death experience is and was actively championing its core qualities long before it went global as it is doing today. Not sure how you got the idea that I was suggesting he inspired NDEs.

 

Joseph

 In this I don´t completely agree. Regarding the official theory that the Al Kaeda primitive desert people, just a very small group in the world,

would have programmed in a perfect way, simultaneously,  the attacks, even in the Pentagon where the

radar curiously didn´t function that day (the non plus ultra of the non plus ultra of defence in the world)

has a bad quality radar, which for the first time doesn´t function exactly the first time that an attack is launched

directly against it (it is one possibility in millions of millions)

 

I declare myself totally ignorant regarding what may have happened.

As you say, it is best to go with parsimony, but best for our own tranquility, we don´t want to ge too anxious,

but in the depth we know there is something more.

Many times parsimony is good.

But what do we hide behind parsimony? Our fear of finding the unknown ?

Parsimony is a comfortable position in the center and allow us to live an agreeable life.

And of course we will never know the whole truth, but we can use logic, and it will take us near the truth

 

Regarding Jesus in the NDE , I am convinced that it is just an archetype. Each person of each religion sees

"his" religious lider during the NDE. A buddhist will see buddha. An islamist will see Mohammed. and so on.

Research has proved it already. Indeed there are some examples of 2 or 3 people together in the same

NDE during an accident, and the being of light they see is that one of their upbringing.

And yet, they all hear the same: that one of them would stay in eternity, and the other 2 would come back,

and thus it was. 

I think the personality of Jesus had many positive aspects , although also negative ones.

He was a wise person who brought innovation in the Jewish religion, in spite of being a more conservative

jew than others. The same than Buddha or Moses, or the Prophets, or Mohammed, or Gautama Siddharta.

Each person thinks the best one is that of his upbringing, but in reality all of them brought good things

for the spirit. To concentrate everything just in one of these leaders is fundamentalism.

 

Joseph, we use logic to explain things, but there are many things, although not all, that I agree with William

because they come from proven laws of physics, pure science, quantum physics, that make him right in many

of his concepts.

My old Newtonian mind rejects many of William´s concepts

But my new Quantum mind accepts them even if I don´t like them ( I have to accept them because science has proved

them) and in that I have to be humble.

 

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